MN: I am Mira Nabulsi. On Friday March 30, more than 30,000 Palestinians gathered at the border of Gaza and Israel to commemorate the 1976 killing of six Palestinian citizens of Israel protesting the theft of their land, which became known as the Palestinian land day. On the first day of what the organizers call the Great March of Return, Israeli military forces opened fire into the peaceful demonstrations killing at least seventeen people and injuring more than 750. The Israeli occupation forces boasted on their twitter account that they know where every bullet landed during the massacre. They later deleted their tweet. Organizers of the Great Return March note that the objective of the march is to demand the implementation of the United Nations Resolution 194 allowing for Palestinian refugees to return to their original towns and villages that are part of now Israel. The march was part of a six-week event that will culminate in the commemorative 70th anniversary of the Palestinian Nekba or catastrophe. That’s the term Palestinians use to describe the events leading to the creation of the state of Israel and the displacement of more than 750,000 Palestinians now refugees in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, surrounding Arab countries, and around the world. I spoke with Mohamad Abdul Wahab Abu Hashem, a legal researcher with the Palestinian Center for Human Rights and a Human Rights and Criminology lecturer at the Al-Azhar University in Gaza about the march and the objectives of these mass protests.
So lets start by explaining to our listeners what the March of Return looked like. You were there Saturday with your family. Some of our listeners may have seen images of people praying at a site of the march and images of tents set up. Describe more of what things look like on the ground and what it felt like.
MH: Many people think about just going to support us peacefully and ask for our right to return according to Resolution 194 issued by the General Assembly. This was idea that depends on nonviolent resistance like what happened in India South Africa and it was planned like that, but Friday when people get there, some young people got near the Israeli border and got shot the even though they were not an imminent threat. Some got shot in their legs and hands. They start throwing stones at the soldiers even though the stones would not reach the soldiers, of course, because they are far away and there are three fences between them and the soldiers. And the soldiers already hide in sand doom ok? They start to kill people rather than just injre them and people got angry, then people started to kill more. Start targeting people in the back because they said they were Hamas. There were people from Hamas. There were people from Fatah there and everyone participated in the rally and everyone participated in this demonstration. So they were not soldiers when they were there and participating. When they participate, Israeli soldiers decided to kill them in cold blood. That’s why this Friday will be more violent I think. And I don’t want it to be more violent really, but we expect a more violent Friday this Friday.
MN: And to go back to my question on how things were organized. How things looked like, the tents. Can you give our listeners an idea of how things looked on the ground.
MH: We just dance there and we planned for folklore dance like debka and singing and something we call Hayeh which is original dance for Bedouin. It was supposed to be like that and it intended to be like that but when things turned to violence things change a little, but during the last days after the Friday we get back and for example yesterday there was a chain of readers many just get their books and start to read before the borders. Ok. Today before there was the Hayeh, which I told you before is the traditional dance for Bedouin. The day before it was debka. Some people just get there and play football. I thinks still some accidents happen there and some people enjoyed it still. I don’t know why I think Israeli forces tried to make the demonstration violent because this is the field that suits them because if it’s about nonviolent struggle so they will not have any justification to use force so they are trying to provoke people to use violence so that they can justify killing them. It’s hard to control people when they get angry and unfortunately people get angry because they see what happened and how Israeli soldiers just killed their friend and how they killed Palestinians in cold blood. They even targeted some girls and women.
MN: So you’re saying initially the idea was to organize different types of cultural events and activities so just people getting together to celebrate their culture and demand their right to return and you feel that the people were dragged into violence because of Israeli provocation.
MH: Yeah it tried to send a message to the world that we still have a right to return. We insist to return really.
MN: And if we were to talk about the casualties, and the Israeli narrative of the events at least 17 Palestinians were killed during that day, Friday. And 800 injured with live ammunition. There were obviously other Palestinians that were killed after Friday, that were hurt. Human Rights Watch said on Friday that the killing of Palestinians in Gaza was unlawful and calculated and despite videos emerging on social media of Palestinians being shot in the back or while going far away from the border or while praying, Israeli spokesperson instead insisted that the march was not peaceful and described the march as a violent riot and they said that Hamas is using the march to cover up for its attacks. What do you say to that? I know that the Palestinian Center for Human Rights had observers on the ground that day. So in your position as a human rights worker, how do you characterize what happened that day?
MH: Everything was videoed by cameras, and everyone saw what happened. There was young people who threw stones that did not even reach the first fence. I’m talking about three fences between the protesters and the soldiers. So, when they are talking about violence, they try to fool people. It’s not like that. They are young people, they can’t reach the soldiers. Human Rights Watch even said that there’s no imminent threat on the soldiers, but even the Israeli leaders say that they will kill any provoker and kill anyone who gets to the fence. They admitted that on their accounts on twitter. They already admit their guilt by saying they will kill the provoker. If they see anyone active in the demonstration, he deserve to be killed. So Human Rights Watch even said that this is extra judicial killing. If you just decide this one, just because he is active, to get killed this is extrajudicial killing. Even if he is Hamas or not Hamas. This is a peaceful demonstration. There is no war or clashes to justify firing live ammunition.
MN: And so to clarify, the protest happened along the eastern border of Gaza with Israel, but what exactly separates Israeli soldiers from Palestinians who were marching Friday and then continued to march and do their activities. Can you explain more what the fence or what the border exactly looks like?
MH: First of all the demonstration was from 500-700 meters away from the first fence. There are three fences. One of them is an electronic one. Ok. Anyone touch it they know where it gets touched and they can target them indirectly. And after the three fences they make a very high sand shield and they just stand against it. They employed 100 snipers to just target those who provoke or those near the boarders. But as we see and many witnesses say, that they target people who are not even on the border by 500 meters or more. Israelis claims they are from Hamas. I don’t know how they can justify killing someone just because he is Hamas.
MN: How can they tell that they’re Hamas? Because most people went there just in civilian clothes, like there was nothing that could indicate the affiliation of anyone.
MH: I don’t know how they know they are Hamas. There is Hamas and there is Fatah and there was popular front. Everyone was there. Everyone just decided to demonstrate peacefully. The violence comes after the Israeli soldiers targeted some people and shoot them in the legs. People get provoked and just start to throw stones as I said. We can’t justify using live ammunition. They already have rubber ammunition and they have many other tools. Why they insist to use snipers and kill people who are away from the fence, it couldn’t be justified like that. I think it was intended to be violent.
MN: And I wanted for us to talk about also the political objective of the march and the events taking place up to May 15. What’s interesting in the march is that from the outside in western media, Gaza is often associated with Hamas, with rockets with siege, with the humanitarian catastrophe, but the message this march brings back is the point that more than half of the people living in Gaza are refugees whose homes are now what became Israeli and that they’re still waiting to return. Talk to us a little bit about how you see things from the inside. The political objectives of this march – Do you think it can bring back some hope for change considering the current substantial situation in Gaza?
MH: It’s now more than 70 years we are waiting for our right to return. And people start to lose hope. First they bet on Arab countries to get them free and to get them right to return and they depend on popular resistance and they depend on armed resistance and finally they found out no way, negotiation does not work with Israel. Israeli resistance on giving us even part of our land – Even part of our historic land. It was called Palestine before 70 years. It was called Palestine all the maps before 70 years call this area Palestine, so there was a Palestine before Israel. And we as a Palestinians agree that we will take only 28% of it for peace. So what we call now ‘67 borders or the green light. So we agree that we get our land back, only West Bank and Gaza and our capital will be Jerusalem. And let the other whole land to Israel. But finally they wont let our capital get put to Jerusalem. They take even the whole West Bank they leave us areas where dense population of Palestinians there. They just want to get rid of us. They don’t want to give us state. They want to get rid of those population and make them govern themselves without giving them a state even any right without going back to them. People finally find out that they reach a dead end and now we decided the only right we are looking for now is our right to return. We don’t want a state we govern. We want to live with Jewish and Christians on the same land and regardless who govern it we are looking for a one state solution. We want to be a citizen in one country. In one democratic country. We need our civil rights. It is the only solution right now. Two state solution, Israel wont even give us an escape and if it gave us a state, it will be a very paralyzed state. We don’t need such a state controlled by Israeli and under the force of Israeli. I think that’s the only solution right now. Many people just stand behind the solution. We believe in one state, live together and live in peace according to General Assembly Solution number 194 and according to ICPR which is the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights which said that every person has right to get back his homeland. Ok?
MN: And do you think this messaged focused on the right to return was the reason many people came out? There’s numbers that estimate that maybe 30,000 people were out last Friday on the march. Do you think the changing message, the political message is what’s perhaps able to bring all these people together?
MH: As a Palestinian we believe that right to return is the most important right. Our cause is about our right to return. Regardless of who governs this state, we just want to be in our lands, our homes. Get back to where we started. We will not live in diaspora forever. I’m living in Gaza. Gaza’s part my homeland, but it’s not my original homeland. It’s not my town.
MN: Where are you from?
MH: I want my kids back in my hometown. I’m from Yibna for example. Yibna is my hometown. We have a big land. My father got expelled from that and we lost everything and they have to start from zero while we already have a land and a great life there. For us now, we want to get back our lands. We don’t care about who govern, we don’t care about Abbas. We don’t care about Netanyahu. We don’t care about Hamas. We don’t care about everything, we just want our right to return. We want our civil rights.
MN: And I want us to talk about the United Nations. Obviously everything you’re saying is connected to the United Nations. Following the events Friday, the United Nations called for an independent inquiry into the killings as did some of the families of those people killed Friday. Israel refused an investigation and the Security Council could not reach a decision in that regard. As someone working in the field of human rights, do you still count on the United Nations and could an investigation be beneficial for Palestinians at this point. How would that be different from the Goldstorm report that investigated the events from the 2008 war? How do you feel about the United Nations and its ability to do something in the current situation.
MH: I don’t bet on UN really, but they give us legitimacy. When UN said that we have the right to return, the investigation committee should be established. So it gave us legitimacy. When Israel refused the investigation, we could infer from that that they are trying to cover their crimes. Really I depend more on the free people around the world. I think that what happened on South Africa could repeat again in Palestine. When all free people around the world just support the planned people rights in South Africa they want them just to support us to be like them. We are human beings, so we have the right to have our civil rights.
MN: Mohamad in our show we talked a lot about the siege on Gaza and humanitarian situation. This summer it will be eleven years since the siege on Gaza and the reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah was promising some improvements in the livelihoods of the people in Gaza and perhaps easing off the blockade. Do you think people still have hope? How do people get by after eleven years of the tight siege?
MH: Really the siege destroyed our egos. People here lost hope. Suicide attempts become very common. It wasn’t there before the years. Other people see the demonstration, people are ready to die, but they want a solution. Whatever solution. You know when you suffocate people like that for ten years. Unemployment is 60 or 65% of youth. So it’s not like we can get out from Gaza. It’s very hard to get out from Gaza and if you want to get out from Gaza, you should pay. Only rich people can get out of Gaza. Poor people cannot, or even middle class cannot get out from Gaza. If you want to get out from Gaza you should pay the Egyptian or get some mediation on Israel to get from Ariz checkpoint. Can you imaging how life when you are in a big prison where they just let in what they want and let out what they want. Even for example when people threat to fire tires, the Israeli reaction was we will not let tires again to Gaza. So it is like that. If you use anything to resist them, they just prevent it to come in. It’s really like a prison. I tried to get out for example to some conferences. Out from Gaza. All failed because if I want to go out I can go through Ariz or through Egypt border ok? Ariz is Israeli border ok? Ariz is checkpoint where we get through the West Bank. And the other way is through a checkpoint on Egypt border. The Egypt border only work for 30 days for the whole year and very little poeple get out and those who get out paid a lot of money to get out and through Ariz checkpoint, if you for example write anything bad about Israel on your Facebook and they found out that, you could be imprisoned because they think that you are supporting the resistance in anyway. Very dangerous to get through Ariz and it’s very rare to get through Egypt’s borders. We have a shortage on everything. We have only four hours of electricity a day. I’m now talking to you trough a generator. Even the sewage. All the sewage of Gaza Strip poured into the sea without being treated ok? Sewage should be treated before they pour it into the sea but as we don’t have electricity and we don’t have plants to treat it in the right way, our sea become very contaminated. Many disease start too spread between people. There’s many aspects of the siege, but the most dangerous one is unemployment. Especially among youth. Youth here are very frustrated they lost hope. They become very mad against everything. They get angry against Hamas and Fatah and against Israeli. They just want any solution. So the idea of great march to return comes from youth. Finally a hope for them to send a message to the world who will not stay like that forever. We should have our right to return and we should have our right as human beings. That is what we are talking about. It is not about political issue. It has become a humanitarian issue unfortunately. Our cause was a political one, but now become humanitarian because all the world put us in a very devastated situation where people lost hope.
MN: Where do you see things going on from here? The march and the events leading to the 70th anniversary of al Nakba will continue in the coming weeks. Where do you see things heading?
MH: Particularly I think we are heading to one-state solution. And regarding to violence. I think things will go violent next week. We hope it will not, but unfortunately Israeli forces will not change the fire orders for them so they will use the same violence against the demonstration and we are worried about people get angry and finally things will get out of our hands. We trying to keep it peaceful. People they just wanna live decently and they are just trying to push us to lose all our rights, civil rights. It’s unjust really.
MN: And then for tomorrow’s events Friday, can you tell us a little about what do you think is going on and what’s the preparations looking like for Friday cause normally we know that Friday is a day when a lot people go out and protest normally.
MH: Friday for Muslims is a day when people pray together in big groups. That’s why we choose this day. People are already collected in big groups so they move together to the place of the demonstration. They called it Cachu Friday or tires Friday. The name comes out from the one who get shot in his head by Israeli forces who was just holding a tire. That’s why he got shot in the head. Some people got angry and thought all of them would carry a tire and let them shoot all of us. It was like that. Some people decide to fire these tires and others disagree with them and say it’s against environment so we will plan them carefully and show the Israeli’s that we are no savages, just like their soldiers [are]. There are people who love to live in peace and love to live decent life. For example in Rafah there is initiative that to ban all the tires completely and show the Israelis that the tires are not a reason to shoot us in head.
MN: I guess that’s a clarification for people here that don’t know. The march or the site of the even on the border, there are multiple sites is that correct?
MH: Yeah there are six sites where people collect. The big one is in West Gaza. Every group or everyplace where people make their march, they are trying to make goals and even play football, handball and things like that. I’m not sure what will happen tomorrow because I told you that people get angry because of this one that gets videoed by cameras that he just be shot because he was holding a tire.
MN: So the case of this young man seems to have been something that people were really touched by today specifically.
MH: Yeah, that’s why they decide everyone to hold a tire to say that it’s not a crime to hold a tire. That it’s not a crime even to hold a tire, so you can’t justify our killing that because someone want to fire or holding a tire who can use it against me so we shoot him with a sniper in head. Not just on before but in the back of his head so it’s killing in cold blood so that made people are very angry. So I’m worried about tomorrow. I hope that free people around the world just move to change that because Israel saying that if they shot people, people will stop demonstrate. People lost everything. Lost hope. They are very frustrated. Even if you kill them all they will not retreat. To retreat is not a choice anymore because we lost everything already. I’m dealing with loss everyday. Ok? They are ready to die. To die for nothing but they don’t want to live like that. I know people that graduate ten years ago and they don’t find a job. I know people that are engineers and doctors and they don’t find a job. Some people by the way get their launch in the sea and get killed when their launch is thrown. I think you heard about those immigrants sink in the sea. Those people ready to do that are ready to do anything else.
MN: Anything else or any final thoughts that you want our listeners here in the US and specifically here in the Bay area to know? Any final message?
MH: We lost hope in Arabs, by the way, and we now bet on free people around the world. We believe that what made South African people get their freedom is the stand of the free people of the world with them. And we want these stand to be with us. We don’t want to kill Jews or kill Israeli’s we don’t want to expel them from the land. We just want to live together and it’s our right to live in peace together, to have our civil rights. I’m calling for all the free people in the world to stand with us. You are the right side if you stand with us because we were there from the beginning. Before 70 years it was called Palestine. My ancestors were there. We are not just transferred to this land. It’s our land, our homes and we want to return. We want our right to return.
MR: You’ve been listening to Status Audio Magazine. Status is produced by the Arab Studies Institute in partnership with Voices of the Middle East and North Africa, cosponsored by George Mason University’s Middle Eastern Studies Program and the American University of Beirut’s Asfari Institute for Civil Society and Citizenship. Interested in pitching an interview, a program episode, or becoming a partner? Email our associate producer Paola Messina at paola@statushour.com. To listen to more conversations, on the scene reports, and discussions, visit our website statushour.com or subscribe via Itunes and listen to us on the go. You can also friend us on Facebook and also follow us on Twitter. Thanks for listening and for more conversations, please visit statushour.com
