Nisrine Hilizah (NH): The enslavement of Black Africans to the Arab world during the Trans-Saharan slave trade throughout the 7th to 19th centuries has had significant ramifications for Afro-Arabs and Black Africans in the region. More recently, the fatal murder of George Floyd in May 2020 prompted discussions about the phenomenon of Anti-black racism worldwide. This is particularly true in the Arab World, where Afro-Arabs and Black Africans in and out of the region have turned to social media to speak out about the existence of Anti-black racism in their communities. Despite the extensive history of this phenomenon, little research has been made connecting the legacy of race following the Trans-Saharan slave trade, and how it negatively impacts the lives of Black individuals in the Arab world today. The aim here is to highlight the ways in which social media is being used to bring to light this phenomenon in the form of a podcast titled “Online Activism and Combating Anti-Black Racism in the Arab World.”

The following segment will start with our first speaker for today, Houda Mzioudet. Houda is a Tunisian researcher, journalist, and anti-racist activist who covered the uprisings and their aftermaths in Tunisia and Libya for international outlets including Al Jazeera English, CBC, and BBC between 2011 and 2018. She is a co-founder of ADAM, the first black Tunisian association, and of the Voice of Tunisian Black Women collective. Houda is currently pursuing a Bachelor’s of Arts in Political Science from the University of Toronto.

Houda, thank you very much for being present with us today. 

Houda Mzioudet (HM): Thank you Nisrine for inviting me to talk about this topic of Anti-black racism. 

NH: Recently, there has been much more attention on the phenomenon of Anti-black racism in the Arab world, especially following the global #BlackLivesMatter movement following the fatal murder of George Floyd in May 2020. In your opinion, what is Anti-black racism? And how does it differ from other forms of racism/racial discrimination?

HM: Well, Anti-black racism in general, whether practiced by people who are not of—who are not black—is the fact that the perpetrator focuses on the fact that the Black person is considered inferior enough for him or her to subject him or her to maltreatment. And, its—this type of racism permeates all—the lives of many Black people around the world, whether in the Western world or non-Western world. So, a lot of Black people, whether in the diaspora or in Africa, they do suffer from this form of racism from their own people sometimes. For example, in the Arab world, you have people who have suffered from Anti-black racism and discrimination because of their skin color. In the same way, they would base the same type of racial discrimination in, let’s say, Western countries. And so, as a form of racial discrimination, it becomes more visible because of the way it has been practiced, not only in specific countries but in countries where Black people are considered minorities in their own societies. 

NH: Thank you. The second question is, could you provide some real-life, everyday examples of the ways that Anti-blackness negatively impacts the lives of Afro-Arabs and Black Africans in the Arab world today?

HM: Okay, that’s a good question. I think Anti-blackness, as I said earlier, is something that is not only limited to the type of Anti-black racism we see in the West but its something that has become more and more visible in the Arab world, at least in the last decade, with incidences of Black people being harassed—being attacked—by some in Arab societies, be it in North Africa or the Middle East. And, we can see that in different forms. It can be violent, as—some incidences of some Africans, for example, who have been killed in certain countries in North Africa, whether in Libya, or in Algeria, or Tunisia, or in Morocco, to the most subtle one, where we have TV, for example—shows—that portray Black people as inferior or as—or mock them—as being closer to the animal than human beings, but also as creatures who are not smart enough or sometimes as foolish. It also goes back to slavery times where black people used to be enslaved but also servants in many Arab family houses. It impacts also impacts Black women, because, again, going back to slavery, Black women, especially from African descent, living in countries, you know, they suffer some kind of double discrimination because of being women, but also because of being Black, and that also goes back to slavery, and how a lot of Black women had been used as concubines in slave societies, whether in North Africa or even in countries like Turkey, where the slave trade was flourishing at the time. So, these are some of the examples that I can think of, but there are others. A lot of the Anti-black racism in the Arab world has also been informed by the same type of racism that you see in the West in how Blacks are being portrayed in popular culture as being…and sexually available, and physically stronger than White people. So, all of these images have come from Western media also have impacted the way Arab societies looked negatively at Black Africans, but also Afro-Arabs, and I don’t see the difference because both of them are treated more or less in the same way even if Black Africans are usually mistreated worse than Afro-Arabs because of their nationality. For example, if you’re Congolese, for instance, in Tunisia, or in Algeria, or in Libya, you’re treated way worse than a Black Libyan because of your nationality. So, these are one of the instances of how Blacks are being treated in the Arab world today. As I said, media, but also in education, where they are totally invisible and they are not seen as good enough, for example, to become—to take important positions, for example, whether in the government or in public institutions because of, again, the stereotypes of “Blacks not being good enough” or “not smart enough” to take these jobs. 

NH: So my next question for you is, you kind of touched on the origins of Anti-blackness in the region, so why is it important that we talk about it?

HM: I think it's important because it is part of the history of the Arab world in general. If you want to reconcile with the history of a country that has suffered from the invisibility of sections of its population, you need to include everyone. And, we live in a world—a globalized world—where people learn about their identities or about other nations or other ethnic groups through the internet. And I think the younger generation has got this curiosity more than the older one, so its part of this kind of re-education that needs to be done in Arab countries in a globalized world. Arab people, in particular, younger people are—they have this intellectual curiosity, that the older generation they don’t have, to learn about issues of identity that usually that don’t come as something very urgent to talk about. And I guess the quote-on-quote “Arab Spring” has made this topic more urgent to talk about, and in the last decade, it has become more or less the most heated topic, whether on social media or in popular culture, or even in political scene when—given the fact that there have been all these incidences that targeting people of Black descent. And so, the democratization period was conducive for such a discussion to be put on the table. And, I think it’s important now because especially after the death of George Floyd, a lot of people they started to question their own misconceptions about Black people. Like, how come in the US, which is a democratic country, has been there for many, many years, and still, they have the issue of Anti-Black racism and violence against Black people. They are talking about it openly, and we don’t have that kind of discussion. So, it’s no longer an American issue, it’s a human rights issue that impacts the Arab world because they’re part of the system where racism permeates their daily lives. So I think it's important for the Arab world to revisit their identity, that it’s not only this fixed “Arab” identity but its—having this conversation about the place of Black people in our societies is important to reconcile it with part of that history, particularly, the history of slavery and its aftermath. 

NH: Thank you. You are co-founder of ADAM, the first black Tunisian association, and of the Voice of Tunisian Black Women collective. Could you talk more about these initiatives and the intersections between Anti-racist activism and feminism?

HM: Okay, yeah, well I think that one of the blessings of the quote-on-quote “Arab Spring” was for the first time you had the opportunity to talk about identity. And in Tunisia, the issue of identity has never been put on the table. And so after 2011, we started to talk about democracy and transitional justice, and all of these issues considered transition from dictatorship to democracy, they feel the need and urgency to talk about. And so I was lucky enough to have been in Tunisia during the Tunisian Revolution to co-found the first Tunisian—Black Tunisian association, ADAM, which aims to bring the issue of racism, especially Anti-black racism, to the surface. For a lot of non-Black Tunisians, who, unfortunately, a lot of them they live in denial, that there could be Anti-black racism, especially targeting other Tunisians…but also…Black Africans from Sub-Saharan Africa, so it was this initiative to be able to draw the attention of Tunisian people, but also Tunisian authorities to this elephant in the room, that is Anti-black racism, and it builds, little by little, to include even non-Black Tunisians who were allies in the fight against Anti-Black racism. Of course, it wasn’t easy because there was a lot of resistance from public opinion that the issue of racism should not be a priority, but it was put inside of the human rights framework. It wasn’t about being Black or White, it's about human rights abuses should be called out, and, in particular, Anti-black racism. So, that was one of the objectives for finding ADAM, but later on with the Voice of Tunisian Black Women, it was inspired by the #MeToo Movement in the US, which had resonated in Tunisia in 2019 by a Tunisian #MeToo Movement called “#EnaZeda” in which a White Tunisian woman had sued a Tunisian Parlimentarian because he sexually harassed her. And so, me and other Black Tunisian women we thought that we need to make our voices heard because we never felt as Black Tunisian women that we were represented by the feminist movement which was more of a White, privileged, middle-class movement that doesn’t understand what it means to be Black and a woman. So, we thought it would be something more representative as Black Tunisian women to have this initiative which talks about our intersectionality in an Arab country where you can be Arab, you’re Black, and, you’re a woman. And these things cannot be tackled within the framework of an Arab feminism which has always ignored race as something that could be important in the fight against misogyny and Anti-black racism. 

NH: And my final question for you is where do we go from here? How do we go about combating Anti-black racism in our own communities?

HM: My only hope is that civil society in the Arab world—they remain the last glimmer of hope when it comes to combating Anti-black racism. It has to be done through sensitizing communities, different communities, be it in the Black community, but also other communities, including, for example, the LGBT communities or other religious communities who are not Muslim—Christians, or Jewish—or other ethnic minority groups—the Amazigh, or the Kurds. I mean, having this open conversation with other communities and building allyship with them, and alliances with them, is important for the Arab world to be sensitized to the issue of Anti-black racism. And I think that it has worked in Tunisia because of, thankfully—thanks to the democratic transition that the country has undergone since 2010 until 2020 before the coup last summer. But, it’s not yet taken for granted. It’s a long battle that takes a long time, and there needs to be also government will to be able to end, I mean, at least to be able to curtail the Anti-black racism within the communities, but also within the system itself. 

NH: Thank you. 

My next guest speaker is Amuna Ali, a Somali-Yemeni Anti-racist activist. Born and raised in the United Arab Emirates, Amuna is the founder of the social media page @BlackArabsCollective, an Instagram page which serves as “a platform to share the stories and amplify the voices of Black Arabs.” Amuna holds two master degrees, one in Innovation and Change Management and another in Sports Management. 

NH: Hi, Amuna. Thank you very much for being with us today. My first question for you is what inspired you to start @BlackArabsCollective?

Amuna Ali(AA):The reason I started it was not because it was something that I studied or something that I understood or something that I thought, you know, like, it was… its something that I felt necessary to do because…growing up in this part of the world, and like you said, the experiences of Black Arabs go completely unnoticed and unspoken of. Actually, the existence of Black Arabs altogether is completely ignored. And then there’s this willful ignorance about the racism that happens in the Arab world, and there’s this socialized racism that we have that we’ve accepted, its part of language, its part of the ways we function, its part of the way we view each other…and they’re okay with that, they’re okay with this socialized racism. They’re not okay with, you know, being called out on it. And so when the brutal murder of George Floyd happened, and the entire world was angry, and there was a global conversation about race and racial injustices happening, the context of these conversations in this part of the world, which was the first time I’ve ever even witnessed a conversation about race happening in this part of the world, the context was always the West. And its very easy—its so easy to point a finger at the West, but the truth of the matter is, how about we look at our own backyards? How about we confront our own internal biases, the way that we function in our society? And so, when I saw the resistance—I mean, first of all, when I saw the that how most Arab celebrities or, like, influencer’s way of showing solidarity was doing blackface, and posting that on social media—when I saw that’s where—that’s the level’s we’re at, I was like, oh honey, oh, this is bad. This is terrible. And, it wasn’t like there was one or two, I had screenshots of at least five or six—five or six!—and they were all over 150,000 followers. These are people—not people that were ignorant or that were from a village—these were people who have teams, who have sponsors, who have brand deals, who have had—who are actually considered very successful, kind of, fashion whatever, you know what I mean? And these are people who did not feel the need to research for 15 seconds on whether or not that was appropriate, or, whether or not that was a way of showing solidarity. And, that’s when I was like “oh boy,” so, maybe I should put this on my shoulders to educate people because nobody is doing it. We are out here deflecting, denying, and gaslighting the Black community, and its not stopping. And that’s why I started @BlackArabsCollective, so that I could like really, like, shove it in their faces to be like “you are racist, you have socialized racism, you have accepted racism as part of your zeitgeist and ecosystem and it needs to [expletive] stop.” 

NH: So, you mentioned the socialized aspects of racism, and I grew up in the United States so I’m very comfortable with the US context, and I’ve spent some time in the Arab world, but not extensively. So, I was just wondering if you could expand more on the socialized…

AA: So, for example, to this day…to this day, blackface is seen on Arabic TV. We have socialized using racial slurs and have accepted them, and the gaslighting that will come to you when you call people out and call them racist for using these words. For example, in the Gulf region where I grew up, a Black person would be referred to as Khal. Khal, means uncle, on the mother’s side. It also—in some cultures—in the Levant, they call a beauty spot hibit al-khal. And, they would be quick to deflect and be very upset when you tell them that that’s racist because the truth of the matter is this is a very, very racist word. And then you sit them and you explain to them—the reason they are called Khal is because—and trigger warning, this is very painful—these were men who were enslaved and they were castrated so they could serve the women of the family. And because they were no longer considered “men,” they were allowed to be sitting in the women’s quarters. And they were allowed to serve the women and hang out with the women. And therefore, the children growing up, they would consider them “uncle” on the mother’s side. And when you sit people down they’ll tell you, “no, no, no, its because of “hibit al-khal.” It isn’t, and you’re racist. And, like, get it together. There was a type of candy, it was like a marshmallow covered in chocolate. Have you heard of this? 

NH: No. 

AA: It was socialized and culturally normally called “ras al-abd”—the head of the slave. Cause it was chocolate, and if you bite into it, the white marshmallow inside would come out. And—socialized racism. You know? Watching TV, any kind of mainstream Arabic media, NBC channels—their NBC channels are extremely popular even outside of the Arab world. Like, I have had friends in Ethiopia who are “Habesha” 100% no Arab in them telling me “oh, you still have you grew up watching English movies on NBC too.” So, to this day, the NBC channels, they’re—the HQ is in Saudi Arabia—these are very, very successful TV channels—to this day they show blackface, and they depict Black people in a very ugly, and gross, and stereotypical manner. You will see a non-Black individual with blackface playing a Sudanese character in a gross, stereotypical way where he is either lazy, or dumb, or subservient or unintelligent—you know what I mean? And a Black woman in all of these—and Egyptian cinema is Hollywood of the Arab world, and you have seen it. There is the bowab, which means doorman, there is the shaghala, which is the maid, and there is usually some sort of like a sexual commodity, some sort of prostitute girl…when the main guy is going through a hard time and he wants to go to a bar somewhere, the girl who tries to pick him up, and who is a sex worker is always Black, and its like…have we not grown out of this, you guys?

NH: Wow, wow, wow. 

AA: And this is completely socialized and accepted. And this happens to this—like, as recently as Ramadan of this year. There was a hidden camera show, and this is supposed to be, like, “peak comedy.” There’s a hidden camera show where an Egyptian non-Black woman pretends to be a Sudanese woman by painting herself Black and wearing the Sudanese tobe and she’s sitting in like, a little microbus in Egypt, and she is being gross and belligerent, and this is supposed to be comedy. I don’t know where the comedy is. There’s a hidden camera, and she is just being gross and belligerent. And she pulls out an entire bottle of whiskey out of her bag, proceeds to drink it out of the bottle, and then she has a kid with her, she takes an empty jar—this is very gross—she has the kid to pretend to be peeing in it, and then she goes ahead and wipes her hands on passenger sitting next to her on the bus to get a reaction out of him because this is “peak comedy” for us. This is what “comedy” is, this is what, you know…

NH: So my next question for you is what are the pros and cons of using social media to address Anti-black racism in Arab communities? 

AA: Honestly, the pros are…being able to connect with people, being able to cultivate community, being able to…create change even if it’s minute by connecting with people by giving space to people to kind of to not feel alone. For me, its been extremely cathartic on a personal level because for the first time in my 30 years, I was able to connect with someone on my little childhood traumas of being the only Black girl in a school of 700 students and, I thought I was the only girl in the world who has experienced—because it’s very nuanced, you know what I mean? My experience was very, very specific. And being able to share all these similarities with individuals from across the region who also went through similar things has been beautiful. The cons, though, obviously, nobody takes it seriously and…my inability to have access to a broader audience, when I say that, I’m talking about, for example, when I talk about allyship, my point is, it is about individual action. It is about you as a non-Black individual having the difficult conversation through mom and dad, for example. These are people who will never ever have access to me, and I will never ever have access to them. Because they’re probably the ones watching the racist content on MTV, and you are someone who sees my content on social media. And my inability to reach the mainstream media level is what is a con to me about social media…the work that I do. That’s one of very few cons, outside of being doxed that one time. 

NH: So my next question for you is what do you believe are constructive ways to engage in off-line anti-racist activism in our own communities?

AA: Look for organizations that organize…organizations that work with community initiatives, try volunteering, try networking through the work that you do. For me, its incredibly difficult because I started the @BlackArabsCollective during the pandemic after the murder of George Floyd and…in the UAE, you cannot have demonstrations or protests because freedom of speech is not something that’s legal here, that’s not something that’s practiced at all. And so you can actually get into trouble with the law by trying to practice your activism offline. But anywhere else in the world, I would say go out there, connect with people who are like-minded, and your community will find you, you will find your tribe based on who you are and what you put out into the world. 

NH: My fourth question for you is where do we go from here? 

AA:: We continue the work, we continue the fight…people tell me, do you think this is going to change, do you think your work is going to do something? And it’s like, if I didn’t believe that, then I wouldn’t be doing what I do. I absolutely believe that we’ll be the generation to change the world and if not, then it’s going to be our children, because we have to keep the hope going and we have to continue the work because otherwise we will…continue with the same racist, patterns that are reductive and damaging and traumatizing, and divisive. 

NH: I want to take the time to thank both of my guest speakers for taking time out of their busy schedules to discuss this very important topic with us today. Thank you for your insightful comments, courage, and continued activism. In the words of Angela Davis “In a racist society, it is not enough to be non-racist. We must be anti-racist.”